Back Around the Table with Jamey Stegmaier

Joe Mahaffey: Hello and welcome back to another edition of Lay It on the Table, the Southern Board Game Podcast with the accent on Southern. As per usual, I am Joe Mahathy, one of your hosts, and as always, my partner in crime.

James Engelhardt: Yeah. James Engelhart, we got the timing right on that one, ⁓ this time. But ⁓ but we're not the only two people here this time, Joe.

Joe Mahaffey: We are we are not. That's why I was really nervous about getting it right, because not only do we have a guest today, but it's the first time ever in the history of the podcast that we've had a guest actually come back.

James Engelhardt: This is true.

Joe Mahaffey: So I teased this a couple of weeks ago that we might have a spoiler alert, but it is our pleasure to once again welcome Jamie Stegmeyer of Stonemaier Games to Lay It on the Table. Welcome, Jamie.

Jamey Stegmaier: Thank you so much for having me back. I I'm I'm honored that I'm either the first one you asked or the first one who accepted. Either way.

James Engelhardt: Ha ha.

Joe Mahaffey: To to be truthful, it's you're the first one we've ever asked. So there we go. So

Jamey Stegmaier: Okay, that's that's fair.

James Engelhardt: So so now we're we're adding a thousand. This is awesome.

Jamey Stegmaier: Yeah.

Joe Mahaffey: And of course, ⁓ it's after Gen Con. You're you're you're back in your home state. ⁓ how was Gen Con for you?

Jamey Stegmaier: Well, I wasn't personally at Gen Con, but my team was there and they ⁓ they have shared some great stories about ⁓ the the time they had. We have a big booth there that we share with Meeple Source. Wingspam Pocket was maybe the the highlight of it, but we also had Duel of Meloch and some other new products there, new expansions that we released this year. So they said they had a great time and that the tornado that hit Gen Con apparently didn't hit the the specific area where our booth was. So all all of my team members were fine. I think everyone there was fine in general, but a few people got wet. Yeah.

James Engelhardt: Yeah. So

Joe Mahaffey: Well, on our last episode, James had speculated that you were in the ⁓ meeting room in the middle of the booth.

Jamey Stegmaier: Okay. My coworker Alex who takes meetings there was was there probably, yeah.

James Engelhardt: Yep. Yeah, I was gonna say it was ⁓ it was always mobbed every time I went past and ⁓ I I liked the the tray of ⁓ birds that you could just pick out your little bird ⁓ meeples that you wanted. That was a nice little that was pretty fun. I saw people going through that every time.

Joe Mahaffey: ⁓ that's awesome.

Jamey Stegmaier: Yeah. Yeah. That's fun. Yeah, Meeple Source makes a lot of a lot of a lot of different birds, but at least like three or four dozen different bird tokens that you can use in Wingspan. Yeah. Nice.

Joe Mahaffey: Yes, we have a lot of them here. Yeah, we have very distinct favorites. My wife will only play with one of the I th I believe it's the ⁓ the hummingbird will be the only one that she plays with. And I only play with the blue jay. So that's our that's our everybody else can choose what they want. ⁓ and my daughter always has to choose one of the owls.

James Engelhardt: Yes, I I have some of them over here, yeah.

Jamey Stegmaier: Okay. Yeah. Nice. What about you? Yeah. Okay, okay.

James Engelhardt: ⁓ yeah, the owls. Owls are good.

Joe Mahaffey: So ⁓ sounds like you've been really busy. ⁓ obviously the Wingspan you know what? ⁓ it's ⁓ not even the Wingspan brand anymore. I feel like it's the span brand because there's so many different iterations ⁓ of the of the the flavor of the game, I guess. ⁓ how has that been in terms of ⁓ expanding the audience for people that are finding their way to these games? Do you find that they're Primarily still people of the wingspan variety, or people that are kind of coming to it in a different way because they like dragons more than birds or something like that?

Jamey Stegmaier: I've seen a a mix of the two. I mean, one of the reasons we originally decided to spin off into different animals, dragons and then fish for finspan, is that people kept asking for us to make wingspan for different animals. But we tried to be really intentional about it. ⁓ we didn't want to go too far and stretch the brand too thin. ⁓ and we wanted to focus on a few different animals. And so I think we've seen some wing, ⁓ many wingspanners carry over and try these other games. But I think ⁓ the Dragon romanticy book genre has coincided well with Wormspan, and so it sells very well on Barnes and Noble. Probably finding a very different audience there than Birders. And then it's been interesting that the I'm there is an equivalent of birders among people who love fish. It it seems that maybe

Joe Mahaffey: Yeah, I know a hundred percent.

Jamey Stegmaier: Maybe it's fewer people or a different type of person. I don't exactly know, but not quite as many people have gravitated towards FinSpan, but enough people are discovering it and finding it and and having fun with it. It's just been interesting to seeing how the different niches of this game have have expanded and what they've how different types of people that they brought in.

James Engelhardt: Yeah, I hadn't thought about the romanticy thing, but that you said that I was like, ⁓ yep, yep, nope, that that definitely that definitely makes sense. ⁓ so I have one sort of question about the Gen Con and and the Pocket and ⁓ Duel of Meloch. They both hit within like what, days, a week or something of each other?

Jamey Stegmaier: Yeah, they were both I I announced them, I kind of revealed them one week back to back after the other. I think Meloch was first and then Wingspan Pocket. And then they they launched at the same time on our web store for people who wanted to just put both in the same order.

James Engelhardt: So was this ⁓ my my question is, is this like a lucky happenstance y'all just like, yes, everything is gonna line up or was this some genius strategy that y'all had like cooked up ⁓ in in the back?

Jamey Stegmaier: I I d I we've had very few genius strategies here. ⁓ a lot of it is just how things line up. ⁓ like when when you know, we always have different projects in the work at different different times and sometimes they just happen to line up in terms of production and shipping and things like that. And sometimes they start off looking that way and then one project has an issue or one just sails through production and and jumps out ahead. These two just happen to coincide to be ⁓ happening pr in production at the same time.

James Engelhardt: Ha ha

Joe Mahaffey: Jamie, you'll have to forgive James because he's a poet, not a project manager. And I've seen your workflow on the website. Hello there. And ⁓ I know very well ⁓ kind of how those projects kind of go in tandem like that. So I I really appreciate that. ⁓ and ⁓ from that perspective. Sorry, James, did I step on your ⁓ your next question there?

James Engelhardt: Yeah.

Jamey Stegmaier: Ha ha ha.

James Engelhardt: No, no, I was just gonna say I was also a ⁓ a ⁓ book editor for many years, so I do I do understand the project manager. And so this was more of a let you, you know, take some ⁓ extra laps if you wanted to. ⁓ but I also I mean it is it is nice to have two of the I mean, I imagine that the side and less associated universe and wingspan associated universe are two big ⁓ tent poles, so it's not a bad thing to get everybody looking at Stonewall, I would think.

Jamey Stegmaier: No. Yeah, it has been exciting. I mean, the kind of the theme of this year so far has been to look at past projects that that ⁓ have brought joy to people's tables and try to ⁓ look at them in it through new lenses. Like we started off the year with Wingspan Americas, now we Wingspan Pocket. ⁓ I ⁓ Viticulture, the very first game that we published, I ⁓ had some ideas for an expansion for the first time in a long time and published Bordeaux earlier this year. And then yeah, Duel of Metlock, which I I had In every way I thought that I was finished working on Scythe and then I had this idea for a dueling game between Scythe and Expe Expeditions. And so that was fun to to revisit that as well and hopefully fun for for fans to revisit Scythe with a new faction and a new way to play. Yeah.

James Engelhardt: Yeah. Now that was a nice way to sweeten that ⁓ deal quite a bit. That was nice.

Jamey Stegmaier: Yeah.

Joe Mahaffey: Well and as somebody who travels well at least once a year with an ATA case full of games, then I've taken Wingspan to Mexico and to the Dominican Republic for work related trips where I've ended up teaching the game. I'm very excited about Wingspan Pocket 'cause it'll be a lot easier to travel and get through customs.

Jamey Stegmaier: Uh-huh. We we recently went to Iceland on a cruise and I packed Wingspan Pocket and I even put there's a little extra room in the box, not much, but a little bit, ⁓ for sleevers essentially, and I packed some other smaller games inside the box. So I fit like four games into that size and we we played it a bunch on the boat and had a great time with it. Yeah.

Joe Mahaffey: That's awesome. That's awesome. So looking back over the last five years, yeah, because I think that, you know, a lot has changed. I mean, five years ago we were in the throes of of the pandemic and that was a completely different time for the gaming and our industry all altogether. Is there one business decision that you guys made that has really paid off far better than you expected during that timeframe?

Jamey Stegmaier: Hmm. That's a good question. So the pandemic happened right as wingspan was taking off. ⁓ and so taking flight, you might say that, yeah. ⁓ and so I guess I mean part of it, probably the biggest one, is that we decided to expand wingspan to worm span and fin span. That was that was a that was a big decision that we made a couple years in. I think that was around 2021, maybe 2022, that we

James Engelhardt: Mm-hmm. Taking flight, you might say.

Jamey Stegmaier: really looked at that brand and decided to make a game that was a little bit more more more complex, a little bit less complex. So that was probably the biggest one. ⁓ and the result has been that Wormspan is now, I think, our third best selling product, even though it hasn't been available for all that long. And Wingspan Pocket is our biggest first printing of a game ever. We made 175,000 copies and they have sold out to distributors now. So we're we're already kind of trying to make more before the holiday season.

Joe Mahaffey: Wow.

Jamey Stegmaier: So that the ripple effects of those decisions that we made early on, I think we're we're seeing ⁓ positive impacts in terms of numbers, but also ultimately we get to reach more people and hopefully bring some joy to them. So yeah, that's one answer. I we'd probably poke at it from different angles too, but that's that's a big part of it.

James Engelhardt: Ha.

Joe Mahaffey: Yeah, no, that that I mean, it kind of makes sense. I mean, we were you you know, we had ⁓ Frank West on a few weeks ago and we were talking about, you know, he had Isle of Cats coming out around the same time as the pandemic and we we talked a little bit about that. So I was just kind of curious, you know, from the from your perspective, you know, what was the impact there and sort of how it's evolved ⁓ from from that point. So that was sort of the genesis of the thought.

James Engelhardt: Mm-hmm.

Jamey Stegmaier: Yes, I remember listening to that episode. Frank is always fascinating to listen to, especially the way he was talking a lot in that episode about how he's intentionally kept his business really small. So any decision that he makes can he has a lot of flexibility, really, because he's only impacting one person, him over two, him and his wife, ⁓ or his partner. I I have one of the biggest things that's happened over the last like five years at Stomeyer is that I now have seven co-workers.

James Engelhardt: Mm-hmm.

Jamey Stegmaier: Whereas before that I had what ⁓ technically none. And then I started to, I think Joe came on in twenty tw nineteen, twenty twenty. ⁓ so now every decision that I make or that we we make as a team has a pretty big impact on the lives of of eight people and their families. And so I have to try to keep that in consideration. So I'm not only looking to try to make sustainable choices for our customers and their budgets and their their tabletops and their their priorities, but also ⁓ eight people that I really care about and I I want them to be here as long as As long as they want to be here.

Joe Mahaffey: No, I appreciate you saying that. I because I was hoping that we could kind of juxtapose those two conversations and you went right there. So that was really, really spot on. And and I and I kind of also wonder, you know, with the diversity of the spans in general, you know, is there 'cause James and I have talked about this on the ⁓ the podcast some, ⁓ is there a mechanic from wingspan that you felt like you fixed with Fin Span or Worm Span? ⁓ they they do play a little differently. ⁓ with the same themes. And I'm just kind of curious, ⁓ is there anything that you put in those that you kind of wish that you had retroactively put into the the wingspan?

Jamey Stegmaier: Hmm. I would almost say it's a little bit more about what we removed from Wingspan. ⁓ the ⁓ we get a lot of questions about a certain type of power in Wingspan, the the once between turns power. And we had put that in the game originally ⁓ in Wingspan, and it's still there. We put that in because it gives people kind of a reason to pay attention to other players' turns when it's not your turn. You're hoping that another player will do something.

James Engelhardt: ⁓ huh. Mm-hmm.

Jamey Stegmaier: But it's just it's it's led to a lot of questions, including things about what happens if someone does it right at the end of the round. Does it carry over? Does it not? And so when we were looking at Worm Span and FinSpan, we definitely decided to leave that ability out. But there are other abilities in Wingspan. Some you even the the end of round ability that wasn't in the original Wingspan game that was added in the European expansion. We really like that one. That one is less rules ambiguous. It's very easy to add. It ties into into the engine building of the game. And so we we did tie that into ⁓ into into worm span. ⁓ so yeah, it's been a a little bit about looking at it really the community around Wingspan has been so helpful because we get so many questions from people. And so we're able to look at the things that most confused them, in like that one example, and try to not put those things in in the other games. Is there anything like that that that you too in teaching these games have continually had to re explain or that players have stumbled over that that you've noticed that maybe didn't end up in in Worm Span or FinSpan?

James Engelhardt: Yeah. I mean I I like what you've said recently about the the green powers in Wingspan Pocket as as anticipating that, trying to keep track of all of that. ⁓ because I I play games like that. I I think we all do, right? Where it's like, okay, there's like now I have a whole grid of things and I'm looking at like what's po what's still on every turn. ⁓ and so and I think you know, Wingspan has enough cognitive load for a lot of people to kind of

Jamey Stegmaier: Mm-mm. Yeah.

James Engelhardt: grind their gears a little bit going, okay, which bird do I need to get now? What what do I need to, you know, which food do I need to do this? ⁓ and so adding more of that was I think it's wise to take this stripped down version ⁓ back there. And ⁓ and but give it that little boost, which I think is super great. And it doesn't last long. So you know you you probably can't put out more than one or two green powers before it's gonna be over. So that feels good.

Jamey Stegmaier: Exactly. Yeah, I appreciate you being aware of that that cognitive overload. And we've had to keep really keeping an eye on that as we've added new expansions for any of these games. Like how much are we asking players to keep track of and remember? ⁓ yeah, that's a that's a big part of

Joe Mahaffey: Well, my wife who just briefly interrupted me for another issue that we have going on here at the house, just ⁓ that's why I had to take my headphone off there for a second. She is the player who always is like, it's great, these expansions are great, but ⁓ sometimes I just love playing the original. And we find ourselves a lot of time with all these games kind of going back to the original, the original viticulture, the original ⁓ wingspan, the original s well, I guess there is just the original scythe. But you know, all of those we just

Jamey Stegmaier: Mm-hmm.

James Engelhardt: ⁓ there's three expansions, but yeah.

Joe Mahaffey: Well, yeah, but I mean the the original. yeah, I know. ⁓ but you know, from that perspective though, we also like when America's came out, ⁓ a lot of times when the expansions come out, we will just play with the new expansion carts. ⁓ unless there is a you know, like the variant when you added the the nectar and stuff like that where you kinda had to have some some of those kind of pieces in place. But but but anyway, the whole point is that she just always

James Engelhardt: Sure.

Joe Mahaffey: With all the games we have and the with the expansions, she's always like, Let's just play the original Which is which is ⁓ you know, kind of her her way of doing it, so to speak.

Jamey Stegmaier: Yeah. Yeah. I'm often the same way with a variety of games, but in including Wingspan. I think what I often do with Wingspan is that I'll play essentially the original, but with all the cards. I don't separate the cards out. And that that I appreciate that Wingspan is mostly playable that way. There's a few cards that I might draw that I'm like, okay, I can't I'm not I don't have Nectar in place, so I can't play this card. I'll and I'll draw again. But ⁓ I like it when I like more stuff expansions in general where it's just more of the same and I don't have to separate it from then on.

James Engelhardt: ⁓ yeah. Mm-hmm.

Joe Mahaffey: Well, can honestly sla say I have played a ver I have played a game of wingspan. It was just the original with all the original components where we actually ran out of eggs, but we've never run out of cards. So So that that's fair.

James Engelhardt: Ha ha ha.

Jamey Stegmaier: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

James Engelhardt: So I wanna ⁓ so we had talked about make editing for just a second earlier, and I wanna return to that because I had a question for you built around that out of a recent experience. So I teach writing. ⁓ I've worked as an editor. Joe mentioned mentioned I was a poet as well, right? ⁓ so and I recently played ⁓ Greyloon a couple of times after fighting the rule book of that thing. And in contrast, Stonemeyer rule books are always a nice, comfortable experience. I feel like I'm gonna sit down. They also feel nice, so that's good.

Jamey Stegmaier: That's great.

James Engelhardt: and so I'm interested, and this is maybe feels inside baseball, but I I'm curious about it, about how y'all approach rule books as such. ⁓ does it start with like a bare bones thing and you start adding tensins and muscles and all? Or do you have a big meaty robust thing and then start pulling things away? I I don't know. The meat the food thing just happened, I don't know. So ⁓ but yeah, I'm just interested in how that what that process was like.

Jamey Stegmaier: Ha ha. Yeah, ⁓ it well, I can speak mostly so there are a few games designed by other designers where they write the rule book and then we're kind of editing it throughout the process. But for the and that's and that that enters the process in the same way as any other rule book. But when I'm when I'm working on a game, when I have entered the phase where I need people to play test it and I'm not gonna be there, ⁓ blind playtesting, that's when I am I'm working on the rule book. I have a I have a kind of a basic template that I work on for our rules. ⁓ But every rule book need has different needs. And so I'm I'm cultivating that rule book based on that. But a lot of the work of the rule book is tied to that blind playtesting. I get a lot of questions, especially on the first few rounds of blind playtesting, of things that were in my head that I just didn't didn't think to put in the rule book. And I've gotten pretty good at doing that, but still there are things that are obvious to the designer that are not going to be obvious to playtesters. And that's why they're there. I need those questions, even the obvious questions, so I can put that obvious stuff in the rule book.

James Engelhardt: Mm-hmm.

Jamey Stegmaier: The we've also tried to hone our oversight process. So that's all the early building the rule book. Then we get to the late stages where we're copy editing it, proofreading it, looking at it over and over again. And also now when we get we get a an early copy of the game from our printer and we play test that version, and we the the thing that I found that's really helpful at that stage is at that point, I've usually I have not played the game for a month or two because it's been at the printer while they review the digital files. And that's really good, I find, because it means that even I might have rules questions. And if I can't find the rules questions in the rule book, that is a big sign that that's a problem. ⁓ and so that that playtest has been really, really enlightening for for me and my coworkers. We all really poke at the rule book during that stage and try to improve it. Wingspan Pocket may went through major iterations and changes as a result of some of that playtesting.

James Engelhardt: Yeah. it's funny, ⁓ you say that you put the but you basically you step away from the game for like a month, six weeks and then come back to it, which is the same advice we give writing students. You generally can't do this in the course of a semester, where it's like put the poem aside, put the story aside, walk away from it, come back, and you'll think, What the hell? Why did I and yeah, it'll become obvious to you as you're working back through it. So that's that's cu that's great. That's good hear.

Jamey Stegmaier: ⁓ yeah. I like that. Yeah. And I'm glad most of the rule books have worked out pretty well. I I I think there are there looking back, there's certainly improvements that I think that we could made. And we have made them made them on reprints. ⁓ but the ⁓ getting a lot of different people to look at the rule books, and even actually now we we recently added a new step where called ⁓ we're using software called Page Proof to look over our rule books. And the biggest thing that's happening, or the two big positives that come from page proof are one.

James Engelhardt: ⁓ yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jamey Stegmaier: Proofreaders can look at it simultaneously. Whereas previously, like I would have one proofreader work on it, I would look over those changes. Maybe we would incorporate them, or maybe I would just send that file to the next proofreader. But now they can work on it at the same time and they can tag the designer while they're doing so. And so if they're making a change that might actually impact the design a little bit, like on a card or something like that, ⁓ they can just tag the designer and say, hey, what's the intended meaning here? Am I changing the meaning by changing this word or not? And we can fix it on the fly. ⁓ it's meant that there's a

James Engelhardt: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Mahaffey: Wow.

James Engelhardt: ⁓ that's good.

Jamey Stegmaier: A lot more conversation on those files. It's a little bit more work for our graphic designer, but I think the end impact will be really, really positive.

Joe Mahaffey: Well I've always appreciated like

James Engelhardt: And the graphic design is lovely, very, very user friendly. Yes, Joe, I stepped on your line, sir. Sorry.

Jamey Stegmaier: ⁓ thanks.

Joe Mahaffey: No, it's all good. It's all good. You know, he's getting AD DJO today along with James. no, I I I just have always appreciated how you're you're really out there in in your mediums, whether it's YouTube or your blogs or what have you, that really talk a lot about the way you think about the the quality of the work that goes into the box and the type of paper and the way that you structure the rule book. I think we we had a conversation ⁓ with the designer of Spirits of Christmas back in December and we talked a little bit about that because it's interesting to see how designers that are either that one man shop or people that are getting into it are really influenced by the advice that you just freely give away from your experience. And I think that's just really, really a cool thing.

Jamey Stegmaier: I learn a lot from other designers and publishers too, but I am I'm honored that some people do that and that I'm a I'm a huge gamer and so if if I ever see any if I've made any sort of positive impact on other games, I'm benefiting from it because I'm probably playing those games.

James Engelhardt: Yeah.

Joe Mahaffey: Well, with with that as a backdrop, what game has given given you the biggest I wished I had designed that feeling?

Jamey Stegmaier: Yeah. ⁓ I I mean, I have a bunch a bunch of games like that. ⁓ what's one that's fairly recent that maybe I played? ⁓ actually, there's a little one that I've really enjoyed, ⁓ called Three Chapters ⁓ by Joe Hout. It's a little game that's it's like a little bit it's a round of drafting, then it's a round of trick taking, and then there's a a round of tableau scoring. It's a really elegant streamlined game, but I've it's brought me a lot of joy recently, and it it's ⁓

James Engelhardt: Mm-hmm.

Jamey Stegmaier: It's a game that shows a lot of restraint, which I have a problem doing. If you've seen the box for Vantage, you can see no restraint at all in in Vantage. but that's something that I'd like to have a a little more ⁓ skills at at having that restraint. And I I admire what Joe did in three chapters. Yeah.

James Engelhardt: Yeah. Ha

Joe Mahaffey: That's that's awesome. It's it's always nice to get other people's perspective on that because you know, I I wonder with like Wingspan Pocket, are you gonna are we gonna see other pocket based Stonemeyer games in that genre? Sort of like we've seen the roll and right, ⁓ which roll yeah, which I I commented ⁓ a couple of episodes back that that is one mechanic that I haven't really embraced the whole roll and right realms or whatever.

James Engelhardt: Rolling Realms, yeah.

Joe Mahaffey: ⁓ 'cause it's just not something that speaks to me, but I do like the idea of having, you know, different variants. ⁓ I'm I'm also the guy that wonders why am I a snob because I don't play Catan ever. No.

James Engelhardt: Yeah.

Jamey Stegmaier: ⁓ huh. Well, we were waiting to see how Pocket did, how people responded to it, not just in terms of sales, but were people actually playing it? Were they having fun with it? And that seems to be the case so far. And so we are starting to dabble into, at least initially in the span brand, it ⁓ maybe a worm span pocket, maybe a fin span pocket. We haven't really looked at our other games in that way, but I I guess it's possible that we could look at some of them. Is there a Stomer game? What's Stomire game that would would you most like to have a a Pocket version of? ⁓

James Engelhardt: Mm-hmm. ⁓ no. Ha ha ha.

Joe Mahaffey: I'm gonna say viticulture, but I don't know how hard that would be.

Jamey Stegmaier: Okay. huh. What about you, James? Yeah.

James Engelhardt: ⁓ yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Mahaffey: Well, it's just one of those so there's certain gateway games that are part of our, you know, my wife and I have as a vocabulary, right? ⁓ Wingspan's definitely a big part of that. ⁓ Viticulture was definitely one of those. I mean, it's one of those I I judge certain games by I have two daughters, one's twenty seven, the other one's thirty one. When they come to our house and we want to play a game and maybe we have a new game that we're excited about, there's two games that they well, there's three games that they go back to. We already talked about Frank, so we'll leave him over there. ⁓ but the the other two are always viticulture. And wingspan. And and to me, to be able to say, okay, we're we're spending time with our adult children. They want to spend time with us, and this is how they want to spend their time. You know, to me, that is just something that that that we really embrace. And then that when we go out, nine times out of ten, when I'm introducing somebody to the hobby, I'm using wingspan as that game just because I'm I'm really proficient at teaching it. And I can help people get into it very quickly. And nine times nine times out of ten, they end up buying the game. in fact, there's a a client of mine who's here in North Carolina, and I I recommended it to him and his wife, and they've just been having an amazing time with it. So it's it's it's just one of those things that ⁓ that I like to be able to evangelize and then having other versions of that game, like a pocket size, say, well, you know, if that seems complex to you.

James Engelhardt: Yeah.

Joe Mahaffey: Maybe we ease you into it this way. You're used to playing cards, right? You know, and I think that those are those are great ways to to think about it.

Jamey Stegmaier: So do you think, James, I want to hear your answer too, but moving forward, Joe, do you think there are some people to whom you will introduce Wingspan right off the bat and others to whom you'll use Wingspan Pocket? Like will you base it, will you base it on what you know about them as a person or as a gamer?

Joe Mahaffey: I wasn't gonna say I I think it's it's it probably has more to do with where I am and how I'm traveling because I do travel a bit. So like like when when my wife and I go on the trips to, you know, like a resort or something, it's easy to say I'm taking the ATA game and we check it and or the ATA case and we check it with a f you know, a few games. ⁓ but when I travel for work, like I was in Dallas last week, that's that's unsustainable. But putting a copy of pocket in my in my bag and and being able to pull it out if you're stuck at the airport.

Jamey Stegmaier: ⁓ huh. Yeah.

Joe Mahaffey: with ⁓ a flight that's delayed because of a thunderstorm or you're you know you're with coworkers and you're trying to decompress after a day of work. To me, that is that is a venue that I think would make sense. And then plus just going to like, you know, friends and family events, it's easy to just kind of pull out and say, well if nothing better to do. I got this pocket thing here. It's right here. Yeah. So that's the way I think about it. I don't I haven't really thought about it from the standpoint of

Jamey Stegmaier: Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Mahaffey: Would I choose one over the other? Because a lot of times if we're being deliberate about meeting somebody at a game store or inviting them to our our house, we're we're gonna do games. You know. Not as regularly as James does on her his game night, but every Saturday.

James Engelhardt: ⁓ no once a month, but yeah. ⁓ and I think I have that similar ⁓ the pocket is quick, it's clean, ⁓ it's easy to set up and put back away, right? And so I think it's more a question of ⁓ convenience than it is necessarily weight. ⁓ although if I know people have it played a lot of games, I'd probably go with pocket just 'cause the rules overho overhead is lower, right? I mean it still has Still has stuff going on. I wouldn't, you know, ⁓ I wouldn't give this to little kids, right? ⁓ but but still, ⁓ I think which actually I can have a question about the just ⁓ the origin of pocket. Like we had neighbors ⁓ a while ago and we they bought Wingspan. He was a engineer, she was a med tech, and we eventually had to have like, come over, we'll teach you Wingspan. And they would look at each other and go, ⁓ that's how that works. And so ⁓

Jamey Stegmaier: Ha ha ha.

James Engelhardt: That was kind of funny. So ⁓ it feels like there were a lot of people jumped on Wingspan, like those, like my neighbors, who really couldn't get through to it, right? And it feels like part of what Pocket is doing is letting your friendly neighbor birder, neighborhood birder, who's like, I just want something with birds in it, to actually have a good time. And so I know that you were talking with the COO and like maybe Elizabeth and somebody else and saying, hey, was that part of the discussion or does this come from something entirely different?

Jamey Stegmaier: That certainly was a big part of it. Yeah. What we we have a sense that there are that there are lots of copies on Wingspan of Wingspan on people's shelves that are either still in shrink wrap or they've been opened and people have looked at the birds or maybe played it once and had a a really good friend like like Joe or James. I one of you has guided them through a game, but then they didn't play it for a while and it's just too daunting to get back into. And so that was a major motivation. How can we make a game that has a much smoother onboarding process so that they can play with these birds and maybe then later take a step up to wingspan or maybe just play wingspan pocket from time to time. ⁓ I that was a that was a major impetus behind it. Yeah.

James Engelhardt: Yep, that makes that makes good sense. Because I think I would imagine that as a publisher, you and I mean because the same thing happens to me as a writer is like, I it's great that you buy my book, but I'd really like for you to actually have a good time reading the things, right? ⁓ or playing the games, right? And it's like, it's cool, great, you bought the copy, that's awesome. But I also want you to ha there's a we made this experience for you. I think it's gonna be a good time, but give it a go. But then you look at all the stuff in the box of Wingspan and think, ooh, where which goes where? Wingspan pocket.

Jamey Stegmaier: Yes.

James Engelhardt: Put out the bird, put out the cards, you know, rattle the eggs a little bit and away you go.

Jamey Stegmaier: Yeah. Yeah. It's it's been kind of surprising to me to see how quickly people are actually playing Wingspan Pocket too. Like I think there are a lot of games that people receive, including myself, where it might sit on the shelf for a little while before I get to it. But I've seen so many photos on on social media and really so many ratings on BoardGameGeek. So with just like a month into the game being shipped to people, so it's clear that it people are finding it very easy to get to the table. And I'm trying to right now think a lot about what that what the lessons are for me to take away from that and try to emulate that in other games and potentially ⁓ future pocket games.

Joe Mahaffey: Well, I think

James Engelhardt: I saw ⁓ in in the lobby of a hotel at ⁓ Indianapolis, somebody was sitting there at a high table and like, We just bought this twenty minutes ago. Here's and you know, this is we're halfway through. You wanna watch? So yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jamey Stegmaier: Mm-hmm. ⁓ cool. That that's awesome.

Joe Mahaffey: Yeah, I was gonna I was gonna remark that James saw a number of spontaneous ⁓ pocket trainings while he was at at Gen Con.

Jamey Stegmaier: Mm-hmm.

James Engelhardt: Yep. That was ⁓ yeah.

Jamey Stegmaier: Yeah.

Joe Mahaffey: So last last time we had you on, you accidentally had a box in the background that you didn't mean to have that we didn't notice 'cause we were, you know, a little star struck, I think. ⁓ there's nothing back there now that we should be paying attention to is there I think it was apiary at the time.

Jamey Stegmaier: ⁓ really?

James Engelhardt: Ha ha ha.

Jamey Stegmaier: What yeah. I th the only one that's on the my shelf that we have not released is Namiji, which is the the the third game or second or third. It's our third game in the Tokeda line. I don't know what the original release date was. ⁓ so that's there. I haven't revealed what's unique about it, but as I think people probably know, it's mostly just gonna be Namiji the original Namiji Namiji, but with ⁓ some accessibility and onboarding upgrades ⁓ as well. Yeah. So that'll be ⁓ available in about two months.

James Engelhardt: Yeah, great.

Joe Mahaffey: I see.

Jamey Stegmaier: But no other secrets and surprises back there that I that I can think of. Yeah.

James Engelhardt: Ha ha ha.

Joe Mahaffey: Okay. Well We did enjoy Libertalia as well. We we need more pirate games that feel piratey.

Jamey Stegmaier: Okay. Yeah.

James Engelhardt: Ha ha. I wanna just make sure we've we're at the thirty minute mark, so ⁓ we should turn you loose, I believe. ⁓ if that's that was the the plan, right?

Jamey Stegmaier: Yeah, is that I of course if there's any any other big topics that you wanted to talk about, I'm I'm happy to to chat about them for a few minutes. Anything else on your mind?

Joe Mahaffey: Well, I'm just always grateful when you come on. ⁓ now that you've done it twice, we we might ask you back a third time, but we'll wait a couple of years again. I don't know. no, I mean, I I think just with what you've got going on, I mean, looking out on the horizon, is there any kind of thing that you're really excited about that you you think is gonna happen towards the latter part of the year or early next year? Obviously without giving away any two spoilers, but just something you're you're really excited about that that's really filling out the pipeline for you?

Jamey Stegmaier: Yeah. There are some projects that I am I'm really excited about. I I think one approach that we're taking to 2027 and could potentially bleed over into 2028 is we and this is going to sound maybe like we don't normally do this for for our games, but we really do try to take the time to get our games right before we we release them. That is always our goal. ⁓ but I would say even more than usual with these games that were released in 2027. I I had a picture in my head of when they were going to. Be available and they're taking longer than expected. But I don't see that as a delay. I see it as ⁓ we're taking the time it it'll take to make these games really, really great. ⁓ so that's been on my mind a lot late a l a lot lately as I see this schedule shift a little bit, but it makes me even more excited to release the games when they're ready. ⁓ so I have nothing to reveal at this time regardless regarding those games, but we have

James Engelhardt: Ha ha

Jamey Stegmaier: Two games in particular and then a Fin Span expansion. And the Fin Span expansion is one thing that is good to go. That one's great. It's the these other games that ⁓ that are taking a little extra time, but I think the the final result is gonna be pretty incredible. So

James Engelhardt: ⁓ cool.

Joe Mahaffey: Now, is that because of the design and the production process or is it also due to the the supply chain process? Cause I know you've written extensively about, you know, the impacts of tariffs and you've been very verb you know, very ⁓ prolific about that and and even had taken some different actions along the way. ⁓ not trying to get any political or controversies there, but I'm just kind of curious, is that kind of c elongated the process ⁓ in terms of design and and production and then ultimately getting it to market, or is that just sort of been other than the cost, it's been a non non issue?

Jamey Stegmaier: ⁓ other the co-ops, it's been a non-issue. Yeah. For these product products, though, I'm looking at the the design and and the development of the game and trying to ⁓ trying to get the game to the place where playtesters are like itching to play the final version of it. ⁓ and they're one of them one of them is in that stage. The other one is in a in in the graphic design stage. And I don't think it's tied to Terrace or anything like that. But like one thing that happened recently is the I think Adobe discontinued their 3D software.

James Engelhardt: Okay.

Jamey Stegmaier: This is the software that we use for like the 3D model of the board that you see in the setup. And I don't know if Adobe realized like how quite how disruptive this is, because it means that we have to completely or my we, not me, my graphic designer has to completely relearn a new piece of software. ⁓ which is not easy. Like these the three software is not simple. And so that's that's literally what's happening this week and what has been happening over the last two weeks for a specific project that that we're working on. Yeah.

Joe Mahaffey: ⁓ gee. ⁓ I I can say that in my professional life I deal with that organization as well and I I I feel your pain.

Jamey Stegmaier: Okay. Yeah.

James Engelhardt: Ha ha ha.

Jamey Stegmaier: Let me ask you guys if you don't mind. So one one change that has happened since we last talked is that I have a podcast now, the Positively Board Gaming Podcast, my friend Mitchell. And ⁓ I we've been having we record once a week. We have a lot of fun with it. It's around a 30-minute podcast. Any any advice or anything that you've learned that has kept this podcast fun for you for so long? I I don't see this waning, but I I wanna I'm having so much fun with it. I want to try to sustain it.

James Engelhardt: Awesome. Sure.

Joe Mahaffey: Well, I I'll tell you from my point of view. I obviously, you know, I think you we told you a little bit about how James and I got reconnected and how we knew each other in college. So I won't I won't go through that story ad nauseum. I think our biggest challenge is, ⁓ and I've talked about this on the podcast, is that I'm a lazy podcaster. It I enjoy the conversation. I'm a very social person. And then I I tended to be the person that wanted to let the perfect get in the way of the pretty good. And that was always a delay in getting pro ⁓ episodes out on time.

James Engelhardt: Yeah.

Jamey Stegmaier: Yeah.

Joe Mahaffey: And we would build this backlog and it would be like, ⁓ James, I promise I'm gonna get it out. You know, and it was just this my my my wife calls it ⁓ eating the frog. You don't want to eat the frog that day, which is I don't want to edit the the ⁓ the podcast that day. So for me, the biggest ⁓ ease of that has come through the the fact that we use Riverside, not a sponsor. ⁓ Riverside is ⁓ is a platform that has a lot of I hate to use this this phrase, but I'm gonna use it, AI tools that ⁓

James Engelhardt: Ha ha ha.

Joe Mahaffey: That do really make it easier for me because it automatically puts the bumpers where I want it. It edits out the the air, like if we're all staring at each other and nobody's thought of anything to say, like happened just a few minutes ago. You know, it takes care of all that and compresses it. ⁓ it does sort of sound balance as well. Again, I'm not selling the product, but but for me, that has made the discomfort go away so I can focus on the fun, like the kinds of questions that we want to ask. When we have somebody on the kind of games that we want to talk about, when we don't have somebody on. And ⁓ that that for me has just trying to make it as this is really the answer to your question. I'm sorry I'm being long-winded about this, is making it as frictionless as possible as possible from a technical perspective so that it can be fun. ⁓ that that's my point of view. James, I don't I don't know how you would answer that.

James Engelhardt: ⁓ just having fun. I mean, I think that's the it sounds like ⁓ I now I have to find your podcast and subscribe because that's clearly the next thing I'm gonna do immediately as we're off this. But but I also think ⁓ the kind of I mean, knowing the stuff that you post, the ways that you engage ⁓ the industry as well as audience, ⁓ I I am I mean, the problem I think for people might be that they're not curious enough and they're like, I'm just gonna talk about this thing and like box themselves in very quickly and or just lose interest. And I d doubt that's going to happen. You strike me as a very engaged, curious person about a lot of things. So yeah. Just keep keep going with that.

Jamey Stegmaier: I like that. And that is something that we encountered a few months in. We we were had we'd we had developed a structure and then we realized we had the most we actually realized that once we ended each conversation and with then we had like another like Mitch and I would just like talk for 10 minutes off air, that that was usually the funniest, most fun part of the conversation. And so I was like, why don't we just remove this structure and just talk to each other for a while? Like we don't we don't need to have our

James Engelhardt: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jamey Stegmaier: ⁓ I will go into what it was, but it was like it was it and ⁓ it was meant to be fun, but we it was a little bit too structured and so we moved this banter instead of being off air, we moved it to be the beginning of the conversation and then we'd move in to talk about games for the last like ⁓ twenty minutes usually. And that worked out great. So we're trying to be aware of things like that as we go.

James Engelhardt: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. Yeah. And I think that ⁓ flexibility and because again in writing, ⁓ the the idea is like no tears in the writer, no tears in the reader, no whatever, you know, joy in the writer, blah. So you it has to be fun for you or it's gonna suck for everybody. Yeah. And I think letting the structure shift as your needs and interests shift is is key. It's saying, No, no, this is the structure of our like that's death.

Jamey Stegmaier: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Mahaffey: And and James has been a very generous co-host this past year. My wife and I have gone through a home expansion, which means that our house has been chaos, which means we haven't got nearly as much gameplay in and in twenty six that we would have liked, but now everything is kind of returning to normal. So we're getting back to the table. And then on top of that, I didn't have enough nerd hobbies. So I took up ham radio and I've been learning Morse code for the last year.

Jamey Stegmaier: ⁓ huh.

Joe Mahaffey: And ⁓ there is a gamification of ham radio called Parks on the Air, where you try to contact people and they try to contact you and there's points and stuff. So we've we've sort of been able to talk a little bit about that on the podcast, but mostly James has been carrying the water ⁓ about games that have been played and stuff like that. But we're hoping to balance that back out. And I think having that co host that can kind of fill the gap when, you know, w I whether it's writer's block or a dry spell, which is kind of what I look at in that regard.

Jamey Stegmaier: Mm-hmm.

Joe Mahaffey: ⁓ that's been nice too to kind of keep it going 'cause, you know, we're we don't have a don't have a large audience. We don't try to be that, you know, mega podcast, but we do have an audience and people do, you know, reflect on some of the things that we say. And so it's important that we we try to show up for those folks.

Jamey Stegmaier: That's great. I like the idea of leaning on each other and and as your your personal lives certainly affect it. And yeah, I I've seen that in in my podcast a little bit too. Yeah. Well thank you guys for the advice. I I I appreciate the the longevity of your podcast and that you're still having fun with it. Yeah.

Joe Mahaffey: Yeah.

James Engelhardt: Yep. Yep. Thanks for asking. Wow.

Joe Mahaffey: Well, you know, it's it's always Yeah, I know it's always a pleasure to to get together with you and and and see you and talk to you about what's going on in the industry and talk about a lot of different projects and ⁓ topics that are going on. So we just appreciate you being so generous and being willing to come back. And James and I are planning on both trying to be at Gen Con next year. So hopefully we'll see you in person at some point, maybe not there somewhere else. ⁓ but but hopefully you'll be be willing to come back sometime in the near future as well and and have another conversation with us. ⁓

James Engelhardt: Absolutely. Mm-hmm.

Jamey Stegmaier: I ⁓ I would be honored to, absolutely.

Joe Mahaffey: Well, that's awesome. Well, ⁓ James, we're gonna we're gonna end it here and and as per usual, ⁓ I am Joe Mahaffey. I'm not bored, I am board gaming.

Jamey Stegmaier: Mm-hmm.

James Engelhardt: I'm James Egelard. I hope that all your tiebreakers break your way.

Joe Mahaffey: Thanks again, Jamie.

Jamey Stegmaier: Thanks, guys. Take care.